Gunmarks
RA-TA
[RA-TA]

Raittius- ja Tankkipeliseura

EU

“"Jos Wotin pelaaminen tuntuu hauskalta niin luultavasti pelaat sitä väärin"”

Commander: nortsu68 membersFounded 29 Mar 2016
Average WN8: GoodInvite onlyFormerly [-PJR-] Puskajussit Reload · until 1 Jan 2019

Roster as of 9 Nov 2026 · 12 hours ago

Compare

About

Finnish players accepted only !!!


*


[RA-TA] on yksi Suomen aktiivisimpia klaaneja!


CW tä pyritään pelaamaan joka päivä. Kahakkaa sen mukaan paljonko porukkaa linjoilla.


Otamme jäseniksemme aktiivisia pelaajia ( ->osallistut<- yhteispeleihin) + omistat ainakin Yhden 10 tierin heavy/medium vaunun.(kamppiksen aikana muuten voidaan harkita muitakin). Pelaillaan osastoa, linnaketta ja CW -matseja eli jokaiselle pitäisi löytyä peliseuraa!


Klaanimme alaikäraja on 18 vuotta, keski-ikä on ~40 paremmalla puolella ;).


Huumorintajua pitää löytyä - tosikot älkööt vaivautuko (klaanin nimi käy huumoritestistä...)


Kommunikointiin käytämme Discordia. Joten Discord pakko.


Kysy, mikäli haluat tietää enemmän


Lisätietoja pelaajilta/Clan diplomacy: nortsu, peltikotelo, late_lahti, Pantse75, anakonda1112, QuietFinn

Founder
PJkeisari
Clan id
500073535
Followed here since
14 Oct 2026

History

150 most recent events

4 Jun 2026

  • Accepted Members

    4 Jun 2026, 16:48 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Fuulio has been accepted to the clan.

9 May 2026

  • Accepted Members

    9 May 2026, 12:07 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Paskalaatikko has been accepted to the clan.

27 Apr 2026

  • Accepted Members

    27 Apr 2026, 19:25 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Ladamies92 has been accepted to the clan.

17 Apr 2026

  • Accepted Members

    17 Apr 2026, 19:11 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Players (2) have been accepted to the clan.

  • Accepted Members

    17 Apr 2026, 19:10 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player maza5 has been accepted to the clan.

  • Accepted Members

    17 Apr 2026, 18:04 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player kekemake has been accepted to the clan.

9 Apr 2026

  • Members Left

    9 Apr 2026, 08:45 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player OGJ3RMU left the clan.

27 Mar 2026

  • Accepted Members

    27 Mar 2026, 16:52 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Hismu has been accepted to the clan.

20 Mar 2026

  • Members Left

    20 Mar 2026, 19:42 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player harmaa left the clan.

12 Mar 2026

  • Accepted Members

    12 Mar 2026, 18:14 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Tukkimees has been accepted to the clan.

30 Jan 2026

  • Members Left

    30 Jan 2026, 14:54 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player NaapuriMoilanen left the clan.

29 Jan 2026

  • Accepted Members

    29 Jan 2026, 10:42 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player rivet_02 has been accepted to the clan.

25 Jan 2026

  • Members Left

    25 Jan 2026, 14:56 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player wat_1 left the clan.

23 Jan 2026

  • Members Left

    23 Jan 2026, 22:09 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player kimmotus left the clan.

19 Jan 2026

  • Accepted Members

    19 Jan 2026, 17:23 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Tonitsa has been accepted to the clan.

18 Jan 2026

  • Accepted Members

    18 Jan 2026, 18:25 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player jere28 has been accepted to the clan.

12 Jan 2026

  • Members Left

    12 Jan 2026, 13:12 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Noppz left the clan.

5 Jan 2026

  • Members Left

    5 Jan 2026, 08:47 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player AAKettu left the clan.

3 Jan 2026

19 Dec 2025

  • Members Left

    19 Dec 2025, 17:07 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player TinuEver left the clan.

14 Nov 2025

  • Members Left

    14 Nov 2025, 15:49 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player nuolis left the clan.

9 Nov 2025

  • Accepted Members

    9 Nov 2025, 16:56 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player TinuEver has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

4 Nov 2025

  • Members Left

    4 Nov 2025, 20:00 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player KASSU_STEEL_BENDER left the clan.

25 Oct 2025

  • Accepted Members

    25 Oct 2025, 12:24 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player AAKettu has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

9 Sept 2025

  • Accepted Members

    9 Sept 2025, 05:28 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player aarnotankki has been accepted to the clan.

5 Sept 2025

  • Accepted Members

    5 Sept 2025, 13:40 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player klikkeri has been accepted to the clan.

23 Aug 2025

  • Members Left

    23 Aug 2025, 19:12 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player maxxam37 left the clan.

22 Aug 2025

  • Accepted Members

    22 Aug 2025, 13:53 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player NiCCeZ has been accepted to the clan.

6 Jul 2025

  • Accepted Members

    6 Jul 2025, 10:33 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Tuho_Tankki has been accepted to the clan.

3 Jul 2025

  • Accepted Members

    3 Jul 2025, 16:23 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player nuolis has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

17 Jun 2025

  • Accepted Members

    17 Jun 2025, 11:49 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player x1santAx has been accepted to the clan.

16 May 2025

  • Accepted Members

    16 May 2025, 16:54 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player maxxam37 has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

29 Mar 2025

  • Accepted Members

    29 Mar 2025, 13:42 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Kapt_Mikkola has been accepted to the clan.

14 Mar 2025

  • Accepted Members

    14 Mar 2025, 21:18 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player pashaisti has been accepted to the clan.

22 Feb 2025

  • Accepted Members

    22 Feb 2025, 07:48 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player kimmotus has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

14 Feb 2025

  • Members Left

    14 Feb 2025, 18:35 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Onkel_Janne left the clan.

7 Feb 2025

  • Accepted Members

    7 Feb 2025, 11:00 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Onkel_Janne has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

5 Feb 2025

  • Accepted Members

    5 Feb 2025, 20:00 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player harmaa has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

30 Jan 2025

  • Accepted Members

    30 Jan 2025, 16:26 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Fincube has been accepted to the clan.

22 Nov 2024

  • Accepted Members

    22 Nov 2024, 20:59 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player romutankki has been accepted to the clan.

21 Nov 2024

  • Accepted Members

    21 Nov 2024, 19:50 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player RoaringHippie has been accepted to the clan.

23 Sept 2024

  • Accepted Members

    23 Sept 2024, 09:51 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Katen_Herkku_Reidet has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

22 Sept 2024

  • Accepted Members

    22 Sept 2024, 17:55 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Noppz has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

  • Accepted Members

    22 Sept 2024, 08:51 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player NaapuriMoilanen has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

21 Aug 2024

  • Accepted Members

    21 Aug 2024, 19:38 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player JosephStyling has been accepted to the clan.

25 Jul 2024

  • Accepted Members

    25 Jul 2024, 16:08 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Puananen has been accepted to the clan.

13 Jun 2024

  • Accepted Members

    13 Jun 2024, 08:53 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player HerraJUKKA has been accepted to the clan.

30 Apr 2024

  • Members Left

    30 Apr 2024, 13:23 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player NiCCeZ left the clan.

19 Mar 2024

  • Accepted Members

    19 Mar 2024, 21:07 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player OGJ3RMU has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

16 Mar 2024

  • Accepted Members

    16 Mar 2024, 11:51 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player HJK_93 has been accepted to the clan.

8 Mar 2024

  • Accepted Members

    8 Mar 2024, 09:07 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player tomppa74 has been accepted to the clan.

23 Feb 2024

  • Members Left

    23 Feb 2024, 21:56 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player RazielJr left the clan.

9 Feb 2024

  • Accepted Members

    9 Feb 2024, 13:37 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player RazielJr has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

3 Feb 2024

  • Members Left

    3 Feb 2024, 20:54 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player NaapuriMoilanen left the clan.

30 Jan 2024

  • Members Left

    30 Jan 2024, 12:08 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player OGJ3RMU left the clan.

20 Nov 2023

  • Accepted Members

    20 Nov 2023, 16:28 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Pexi83 has been accepted to the clan.

12 Nov 2023

  • Accepted Members

    12 Nov 2023, 17:00 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player K_E_M_E_L_L has been accepted to the clan.

4 Oct 2023

  • Accepted Members

    4 Oct 2023, 14:01 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Travelleri has been accepted to the clan.

31 Aug 2023

  • Accepted Members

    31 Aug 2023, 12:51 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Lawman1 has been accepted to the clan.

22 Aug 2023

  • Accepted Members

    22 Aug 2023, 18:25 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Tankytities has been accepted to the clan.

14 Aug 2023

  • Accepted Members

    14 Aug 2023, 16:47 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player panzerfire2000 has been accepted to the clan.

21 Jul 2023

  • Accepted Members

    21 Jul 2023, 22:49 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player morggis has been accepted to the clan.

21 Apr 2023

  • Accepted Members

    21 Apr 2023, 21:40 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player OGJ3RMU has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

9 Apr 2023

  • Members Left

    9 Apr 2023, 18:44 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Rooseveltti left the clan.

23 Mar 2023

  • Accepted Members

    23 Mar 2023, 19:00 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player NiCCeZ has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

27 Jan 2023

  • Accepted Members

    27 Jan 2023, 20:37 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player teppiz has been accepted to the clan.

30 Nov 2022

  • Accepted Members

    30 Nov 2022, 14:25 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Dewy_The_Stirlingite has been accepted to the clan.

17 Nov 2022

  • Accepted Members

    17 Nov 2022, 17:02 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player anako123 has been accepted to the clan.

8 Nov 2022

  • Accepted Members

    8 Nov 2022, 20:46 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player EaglJr has been accepted to the clan.

6 Nov 2022

  • Accepted Members

    6 Nov 2022, 17:38 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player jampe_1 has been accepted to the clan.

2 Nov 2022

  • Accepted Members

    2 Nov 2022, 22:12 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Heguli_63 has been accepted to the clan.

31 Oct 2022

  • Accepted Members

    31 Oct 2022, 20:45 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Tornin_late has been accepted to the clan.

  • Accepted Members

    31 Oct 2022, 18:54 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Finnish_Metal has been accepted to the clan.

  • Accepted Members

    31 Oct 2022, 14:22 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Pesusieni03 has been accepted to the clan.

30 Oct 2022

  • Accepted Members

    30 Oct 2022, 17:29 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player wat_1 has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

  • Accepted Members

    30 Oct 2022, 17:02 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player NaapuriMoilanen has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

29 Oct 2022

  • Accepted Members

    29 Oct 2022, 10:37 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player PraefectusMors has been accepted to the clan.

28 Oct 2022

23 Oct 2022

  • Accepted Members

    23 Oct 2022, 12:24 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player KaPa48 has been accepted to the clan.

22 Oct 2022

  • Accepted Members

    22 Oct 2022, 20:33 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player TankJaegerSF has been accepted to the clan.

19 Oct 2022

  • Accepted Members

    19 Oct 2022, 11:32 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Zowie_90 has been accepted to the clan.

14 Oct 2022

  • Accepted Members

    14 Oct 2022, 21:49 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player smugeli has been accepted to the clan.

2 Sept 2022

  • Members Left

    2 Sept 2022, 18:28 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Maxe43 left the clan.

26 Aug 2022

  • Accepted Members

    26 Aug 2022, 19:35 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player finghost5 has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

22 Jul 2022

  • Accepted Members

    22 Jul 2022, 15:10 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Mustalaisvankkuri has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

20 Jul 2022

  • Accepted Members

    20 Jul 2022, 16:47 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Maxe43 has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

10 Jul 2022

  • Accepted Members

    10 Jul 2022, 18:51 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Remu_FIN has been accepted to the clan.

29 May 2022

  • Members Left

    29 May 2022, 16:09 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Jepukka_fin left the clan.

4 May 2022

  • Accepted Members

    4 May 2022, 16:30 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Rooseveltti has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

2 May 2022

  • Accepted Members

    2 May 2022, 09:17 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Hantta has been accepted to the clan.

29 Apr 2022

  • Accepted Members

    29 Apr 2022, 21:24 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Narpa has been accepted to the clan.

23 Mar 2022

  • Accepted Members

    23 Mar 2022, 15:40 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player lord_of_tupos has been accepted to the clan.

26 Nov 2021

  • Members Left

    26 Nov 2021, 16:21 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player salkki64_FIN left the clan.

29 Jun 2021

  • Accepted Members

    29 Jun 2021, 02:22 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Jepukka_fin has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

18 Jun 2021

  • Members Left

    18 Jun 2021, 17:09 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Tappi69 left the clan.

22 May 2021

  • Members Left

    22 May 2021, 08:54 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player _AtS_ left the clan.

17 May 2021

  • Accepted Members

    17 May 2021, 15:28 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player _AtS_ has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

16 Apr 2021

  • Accepted Members

    16 Apr 2021, 15:48 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Tappi69 has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

11 Apr 2021

  • Members Left

    11 Apr 2021, 10:29 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player MrEIkku left the clan.

19 Feb 2021

  • Accepted Members

    19 Feb 2021, 11:19 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player tomi167 has been accepted to the clan.

22 Jan 2021

  • Accepted Members

    22 Jan 2021, 21:47 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Kale1958 has been accepted to the clan.

10 Jan 2021

  • Accepted Members

    10 Jan 2021, 17:27 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Hallahousu has been accepted to the clan.

7 Jan 2021

  • Accepted Members

    7 Jan 2021, 19:10 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player anakonda1112 has been accepted to the clan.

2 Jan 2021

  • Accepted Members

    2 Jan 2021, 19:49 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player fishmask has been accepted to the clan.

13 Dec 2020

  • Accepted Members

    13 Dec 2020, 17:47 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player sfinal has been accepted to the clan.

6 Nov 2020

  • Members Left

    6 Nov 2020, 20:49 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Spezct left the clan.

3 Nov 2020

  • Accepted Members

    3 Nov 2020, 16:15 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player MrEIkku has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

30 Oct 2020

  • Members Left

    30 Oct 2020, 18:46 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player mrheikki left the clan.

18 Oct 2020

  • Accepted Members

    18 Oct 2020, 04:39 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Spezct has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

19 Sept 2020

  • Accepted Members

    19 Sept 2020, 19:13 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player mrheikki has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

14 Sept 2020

  • Accepted Members

    14 Sept 2020, 10:17 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Homo_Nanus has been accepted to the clan.

28 Aug 2020

  • Accepted Members

    28 Aug 2020, 05:58 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Mikoloth has been accepted to the clan.

31 Jul 2020

  • Members Left

    31 Jul 2020, 18:24 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player AllMightyUuno left the clan.

19 Jul 2020

  • Accepted Members

    19 Jul 2020, 15:43 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Sonninen has been accepted to the clan.

28 Jun 2020

  • Accepted Members

    28 Jun 2020, 11:56 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player juhuli1 has been accepted to the clan.

5 Jun 2020

  • Members Left

    5 Jun 2020, 17:42 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player tumpelot left the clan.

3 Jun 2020

  • Accepted Members

    3 Jun 2020, 17:40 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player tumpelot has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

14 Apr 2020

  • Members Left

    14 Apr 2020, 07:41 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Narpa left the clan.

22 Mar 2020

  • Accepted Members

    22 Mar 2020, 13:48 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player nortsu has been accepted to the clan.

21 Jan 2020

  • Members Left

    21 Jan 2020, 20:41 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player anakonda1112 left the clan.

8 Nov 2019

  • Accepted Members

    8 Nov 2019, 14:32 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player handeka has been accepted to the clan.

16 Oct 2019

  • Members Left

    16 Oct 2019, 03:03 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player nortsu left the clan.

19 Sept 2019

  • Accepted Members

    19 Sept 2019, 17:32 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player panpa75 has been accepted to the clan.

17 Aug 2019

  • Members Left

    17 Aug 2019, 13:25 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player SusiWolf left the clan.

7 Apr 2019

  • Accepted Members

    7 Apr 2019, 09:58 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player KASSU_STEEL_BENDER has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

18 Mar 2019

  • Accepted Members

    18 Mar 2019, 16:59 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player nortsu has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

  • Members Left

    18 Mar 2019, 15:31 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player TheAgandor left the clan.

10 Mar 2019

  • Members Left

    10 Mar 2019, 04:38 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Petomeister left the clan.

20 Feb 2019

  • Members Left

    20 Feb 2019, 18:55 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player tazzu12 left the clan.

20 Jan 2019

  • Accepted Members

    20 Jan 2019, 06:47 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Petomeister has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

18 Dec 2018

  • Members Left

    18 Dec 2018, 14:23 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player nortsu left the clan.

1 Dec 2018

  • Accepted Members

    1 Dec 2018, 09:00 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player tazzu12 has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

28 Sept 2018

  • Accepted Members

    28 Sept 2018, 16:39 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player TheAgandor has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

26 Sept 2018

  • Accepted Members

    26 Sept 2018, 20:10 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player SusiWolf has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

11 Aug 2018

  • Accepted Members

    11 Aug 2018, 21:29 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player AllMightyUuno has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

14 Jul 2018

  • Members Left

    14 Jul 2018, 09:01 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player AllMightyUuno left the clan.

24 Jun 2018

  • Accepted Members

    24 Jun 2018, 14:57 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player nortsu has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

9 May 2018

  • Accepted Members

    9 May 2018, 16:10 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player anakonda1112 has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

7 May 2018

  • Accepted Members

    7 May 2018, 20:50 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player salkki64_FIN has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

20 Apr 2018

18 Mar 2018

  • Members Left

    18 Mar 2018, 09:46 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player MaxEG left the clan.

27 Jan 2018

  • Accepted Members

    27 Jan 2018, 22:20 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Narpa has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

11 Jan 2018

  • Members Left

    11 Jan 2018, 10:53 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player nigg_su left the clan.

3 Jan 2018

  • Accepted Members

    3 Jan 2018, 21:16 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player MaxEG has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

28 Dec 2017

  • Accepted Members

    28 Dec 2017, 23:50 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player SamppalinnaShake_FIN has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

21 Nov 2017

  • Accepted Members

    21 Nov 2017, 22:27 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player jli has been accepted to the clan.

5 Oct 2017

  • Accepted Members

    5 Oct 2017, 18:31 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player nigg_su has been accepted to the clan.

    No longer a member.

19 Sept 2017

  • Accepted Members

    19 Sept 2017, 17:47 UTCMilitary Personnel

    Player Raikka75 has been accepted to the clan.

A join is exact: Wargaming lists it with the roster. A departure or a change of position is noticed when the roster is next refreshed, so it is shown with the window it happened in — this clan has been followed since 14 Oct 2026. Changes of position are known only from when this site began recording them; earlier ones are not shown. Where a player’s own membership history has been fetched, its exact dates are shown instead, including earlier ones.